First Person Meets… David Jones: Don’t sweat the career

Matt Egan

Hello, hello, hello, welcome to First Person, the show where we meet the most interesting people in it and learn from them what makes them tick by focusing only on their firsts.

I'm your host, Matt Egan, asking you to enjoy, like and subscribe wherever you find us, and if you're an interesting person in it, please do let us know you might be the next first person. The next voice you will hear will be today's guest. He is David Jones.

David is definitely one of the most interesting people in it, a chief architect, CTO, and a CIO, who describes what he does as elevating business, technology, strategy through architectural excellence. We are delighted to have him as a guest on first person. So David, welcome and first up.

What is the first thing people should know about you? David Jones

Well, it's, uh, really proud to be on the on the program, Matt. I think the first thing to know about me is I'm very honest, very honest person. Excellent. I try not to do politics. Okay, honestly and politics don't go together.

I do love collaborating with people, I have to say, and but I I'm really like to focus on getting the job done and enjoy it. Join the experience. Okay, Matt Egan

well, well, I mean, hopefully we will get the job done today, and you will enjoy this experience, and maybe our viewers or listeners will enjoy it too. Big fan of honesty. That's very helpful in an interview show.

And, yeah, we're going nowhere near politics, trust me, that is, is that is definitely not something that we want to touch on today. Brilliant.

Okay, so moving into our first section of the show, which we call First things first, which is where we would like to get to know our guest by understanding some of their first time.

So let's go right back to the beginning, if you don't mind, David, and tell us a little bit about your your first job in it. How did you get into this industry? It David Jones

was actually when I was in secondary school, huh? So when I was 12 or 13, just as as they as you, start to decide what kind of subjects that you want to choose in back then and in our school, we didn't do computing, Matt Egan yeah, so yeah.

David Jones

And so I chose, at that time to go and do a go to one of the tech colleges to while I was still at school to study computers, because they were doing as part of electrical engineering course.

And then as that, as I was doing that, the school started to introduce it so and once I finished up in school, the teacher asked me back to to actually help him run the class.

So while I was still heading off to go to university and stuff, I still stayed on and helped the teachers then introduce computer studies, and I remember sitting there formatting a lot of floppy disks for the BBC Micro. Matt Egan Wow.

Yeah, that's amazing. I also, I've said this before on this show, but I was the editor of a PC magazine before I owned a PC, and I don't believe I ever used a computer ever at school, it just didn't. It wasn't a thing we did.

You know, even at university, I wrote essays by hand. There was a computer center you could go to, but you had to, like, book a slot to use it.

Which, which, I think, like people who are even maybe, you know, a short while younger than you and I, David, we sound like we're a similar vintage.

Would find kind of mind blowing, right that like, like, because computers are so intrinsic to every part of our daily lives now, but, but even the fact that it was kind of a subject to be taught, but I'm really interested that what do you think it was that at the age of 12 or 13 intrigued you sufficiently that you went out and sought that opportunity outside of your non schooling?

David Jones

Yeah, yeah, I have to say it was my brother. He was, he was electrical engineering, and he was taking me through some of the formulas of what he has to do. And I said, there has to be a way to to do that, you know.

And and in parallel to that very scientific, structured kind of thinking.

I also had a pen pal in France at the time, and I was saying, I'd like to be able to write to that person, but I want to be able to do it in a kind of a structured way.

And, you know, run my writings awful and all that. And my brother says, Why don't you learn? I think those computers are just coming out now. I think it was the the next spectrum, Vic 20, Commodore, 64 he says, what maybe ask mom to get one of those?

Yeah, and it was basically trying to solve those two problems. I wanted to write to Pam Paul I had in France, and I wanted to help my brother was a. Is electronics, Formula studies. Matt Egan

It's so interesting to me how many times we talk to people who have been successful in it and in technology and their way in is, it's something akin a similar type of story, right? It's, it's a curiosity and a desire to solve problems, you know?

And then the technology it's not incidental, but it's, but it's kind of the framework within that which that happens, kind of thing. It's really interesting. I'm quite satisfied to hear these stories like repeat, because that spark that lights 1000 fires, it is, it tends to be quite similar.

And so you, then you, you're kind of in the industry, because you're like, you know, working in education, in principle. I mean, I presume you then went to college to study something related is, would that be, would that be, right? David Jones Yes.

I, as you know, Matt, in England at the time, I come from Liverpool in England. At the time there was, you do your O levels, your A levels, then you go on to university.

Sometimes, if you don't do your A levels, you go, maybe go to college to do an equivalence.

At the time, I my family knew someone that was the head of Wang systems at the time over in Birkenhead, and so I contacted him, and I says, Look, you know, which route should I go A levels, or should I go to college before going to uni?

And his advice was, go to college. You will actually, you'll be able to focus in on computer studies. You'll be able to get the practical element as well as collect up some of the other subjects. And that's what it is.

I went to college, and you know, so I left school at 16, went to college till I was 18 then and then on to do my BSC honors in computer science. Then I said, Matt Egan

amazing, like, like, again, the the the opportunity, but also the desire to reach out and ask for that advice, and then to take it because, like, I mean, there's a book to be written about education and technology, and it specifically because, I think, you know, it often feels like the academic teaching of the subject is somewhat behind what's happening in industry kind of thing, and that, you know, your story kind of, kind of bears that out.

And, you know, so having gone through all of that, and the hands on experience and the ability to focus you, then presumably, went into the industry and did was that the first, you know, the first job Post University? Does that? Did that feel like you fitted in?

Did that feel like that was, was that the first time you thought this was the industry for you? David Jones

Well, wasn't entirely sure at that point. I certainly was what I was on a sandwich degree. So it was a year out in industry. So I was, I was definitely able to, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I was able to really, in that year, really able to understand what goes on in the commercial world versus the class world. And I was going, I really do.

I was really enjoying that and but there was still an area of me in terms of really wanting to understand the latest technology like that was working for an insurance company on, you know, Pl one, and, you know, mainframe. And so I was like, I was really curious.

Back to your point. I was really curious about, what is the latest technology that people are trying to work out?

So when I, when I went to work for my first, I suppose official graduate, a graduate program for Plessy telecommunications, actually, in the middle they then changed to being Bocconi I, I said, Look, I would, I would gladly accept the opportunity to work on your graduate program, but I'd also like to still do a master's research degree.

My chosen one was, was object technology the time, so object oriented design and Model Driven architecture and all of that was, was the buzzword so, so they gave me day release, and I was able to travel up to Manchester every Wednesday at you must to complete a research degree in object technology.

So So mixing work, but still looking at that kind of the bleeding edge technology research time. Matt Egan

What a, what a, what a fascinating thing to do, right to have both of those sort of strings to your boat, and also, what, what a smart move by the employer, right? Because they're giving you that time to to follow your passion.

But presumably they were getting the benefit of of that work. David Jones

They absolutely were, and, yeah, I, I think the the downside of that, probably, for both them and myself, is, is sometimes, you know, you will, you get to the stage of, well, maybe where my horizon is, where I want to get to now, maybe they're not ready for that change.

Yeah, and, you know, so. So. So coming to the end of that research degree, I realized that that there was another organization that was already kind of focusing in on that, that kind of new era of of technology and ways of doing things.

So by the time I qualified, I was on the exit path to go to, you know, but that, but you're right. There was definitely, you know, benefits along the way for both of us.

But then it was kind of, well, hey, this is what it's saying in the industry moving forward. Yeah, how long are you going to before you move into that direction? You know?

So that was an interesting that was my first, I suppose, point of where it's saying, Ah, I think I need to move on Matt Egan facing Wales.

But that, you know, like better for everybody, that you were able to come to that viewpoint from a position of strength, I guess, and ambition, rather than just just people.

I mean, I would have thought the downside for someone from Liverpool was that you had to go to Manchester is a great school.

And I wonder if, like, this is a, this is speculation, but you know, as someone who has been, you know, a very senior architect, there's something to be learned from that, understanding that the organization may not, may not be ready for the most bleeding edge solution. Right?

Like, as an architect, your job is to provide the right solutions and infrastructure for the organization today and to tomorrow, which might not necessarily always be like to be right on the bleeding edge. Would that be? Is that?

Is that a fair observation, or am I like talking from the outside? David Jones

No, you're absolutely right. You do need to realize one around. Where was the technology at in terms of the the adoption curve in the industry? You know? So, so understanding where exactly that, that that technology is, AI is a good example of that at the moment.

So looking at that, I kind of Matt Egan

say again, yeah, no, I was, I was completely agreeing with you.

I think the infrastructure and architecture for AI conversation is such an interesting one, because, you know, everyone's rushing forward towards something, but the practical realities of what the organization needs today versus what we think it's going to need tomorrow require the architect to be really kind of flexible in building sustainable, growing solutions.

Right? David Jones

Exactly 100% and you know, particularly with with with AI, it's, it's very immature, you know, there's, there's a lot of evolution to go so it's a case of taking those, understanding the use cases, and taking those baby steps and and learning, you know, because there's a lot of change, you know, for the organization, a lot of change for it, as well as changing the industry.

So it's all moving along with that, and also regulation all moving along with that at the same time. But back to your original question.

I think, you know, there's, it's, it's, it's really important to understand, you know, where the technology is at in the industry, also where the organization is at and also what's appropriate for their priorities at this stage, you know, and getting that timing right, I think, is really important, yeah, and, and I would, I would say that's probably one of my failings early on in my career, is maybe missing that timing and the approach to bringing in something new to An organization.

Matt Egan

Don't worry, we'll get to your failings very soon indeed. But I am, I am, I'm kind of impressed with you know, this early part of your career on many levels, right?

Clearly, the organization you worked for and the organization you went to, they sound like strong and healthy organizations.

So I want to understand what that transition was, but I also want to ask maybe, before that, like it feels and it sounds like you may have in this part of your career, had good mentors and good leaders.

I mean, I mean, can you remember a first great boss and what you learned from them in your career? David Jones

I think my first the boss that has really stuck with me all these years, that I always refer back to in the sense of when anyone asked that question, is probably the boss I had that that that was work, that was the head of it for the for my first end user company.

I suppose I worked in the in the technology companies, you know, the telecoms, the transport, the space, kind of industries, all in tech companies, I suppose, right, systems software houses.

But then, when I, when I came to Ireland, that was my first venture into the end user world of the financial and investment sector and on the head of it there, I remember they interviewed remotely.

Actually, I was in Vancouver at the time, and they, they, they booked out this booth in KPMG offices. We booked out a booth in downtown Vancouver because we didn't have teams. Then, yeah. This is all on BC. And basically I was I booked out this room.

It must have cost a lot of money for a couple of hours air time. And basically they interviewed me and got the job, and they relocated us to Ireland. So lot of investment in us, to relocate us.

And my first day with him, sat down with him and I and he says, he said, what, what you need to be successful in this first year of working in the company, given what I've just said to you in terms of what I want you to do, and I just says, I need access to I need access to the right budget to the right individuals.

I need to have the freedom to be able to use the right approach, right technology to make this and he goes, you will have everything that you need. And just reflecting on that, that just wasn't a day one conversation, he followed through on that.

So the whole thing of empowering me and the team that I was, that I was leading to actually to follow through and see the change happening, and also to advise me how to navigate the stakeholders in the business this that he's very familiar with, and to have his support as I navigate them, certainly in those early years.

And And then thirdly, I think thirdly is he was also, he understood the business very well. He was the head of it, but he actually came from the business, right, right from the investments industry. So he's very well respected in the organization.

He was on the top team, but he took a stint in it, and I think I got a lot of value at the fact that he came from the business, but he had a passion for it to help the business.

He knew it needed it and and he knew to rely on people that understood it to help him, you know.

And I forever grateful for the time I was there for a good I'd say at least seven to 10 years that my kind of professional growth, I think, as a as a real leader, came on the back of spending a lot of that time with him. Matt Egan

That's amazing, and it's so again, one of the themes you often hear, I think these days, we talk about servant leadership, maybe, or something like that.

But I remember when I was first managing a reasonable size team, an HR person, actually, so asking me to draw the org, and obviously I did a triangle with myself at the top, and then her just turning upside down and saying, right, but, but as a leader, your job is exactly what you talked about, right?

You will have everything you need. Also, I'm going to navigate the organization for you so you can do your job without having to kind of step into bear traps or, I mean, you mentioned politics earlier, right? There's always politics in every organization, right?

And a good manager, a good leader, can help you, like, put through those things.

But I think again, another thing that's that's often consistent in in these conversations is the IT leader, who's actually a business leader, right, who cares about and is passionate about the business but understands that the IT strategy is the business strategy as well, kind of thing.

So lots of really great lessons to absorb there. But again, as we mentioned earlier, we can't let you off the hook here, David, you have already trailed the very concept of failure, and we're not only here for the good stuff. We do learn more from our mistakes.

So maybe we should hit on that in our next section. David, it'd be great to understand, you know, what's that first big mistake that you know occasionally makes you wake up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat?

Is there one of those in the, in the in the in the wardrobe there? David Jones

I mean, certainly every project you have the, you know, the micro level mistakes that you're making as you move through through the particular project or program of change, you know, and you know, and you do, you do have those sleepless nights, but that's, that's part of being in it.

I think when I look historically back at my career, I think it's back to that point of, you know, I'm very passionate about technology and about how we do and how we do it well, but it does have to be tempered and tailored based upon how ready the organization is.

And I would have, I think, when I was given a big opportunity to lead a change in it as part of a revised it strategy, the first IT strategy refresh I was involved in, in one of the organizations.

You know, I proposed a certain methodology, component based development back in the time before SOA, just a pre, a precursor to SOA, as we just entered into our and, you know, I did all the research. You know, very comfortable with researching.

And you know, where I come from, from the engineering world and all of that. And I was right, this is how we should do things.

And you know, there was a, there was a there was a gap between where I felt that we should be going in it versus where it was at.

Yeah, and, and also their lack of understanding of maybe that was, you know, how to get there, and, and the other side to that is is I probably spent too long in trying to sell that and embed that yes, rather than getting the early wins with the business and chaining out the iterations of value over time.

So, so I think, I think that was a failure. It was something I struggled with in those early years of trying to be able to I know what we need.

How do I translate it, as well as getting everyone on side and getting the value early enough, Matt Egan

yeah, and maybe that, maybe actually, one of the things we learn over time is that, you know, getting there may not mean actually getting right there, but, like, it's getting close enough to there, and actually the quickest way to get there might be in increments to your point, right, like we but I think a lot of very successful people, you know, have a similar experience, which is, you know, it's frustrating because you understand what, what good should look like, and we're not there yet, kind of thing.

But I also think, you know, even just from having these conversations, a lot of the times, the people who become successful, so the one who recognize that mistake, right? It's we do say here, you learn more from your mistakes, and that is definitely the case, right?

If you're willing to learn from David Jones

Yeah, yeah, absolutely do Matt and I remember, you know, the dreaded annual performance reviews, yeah, and, and I used to always say, what like this, this interview, this performance Review is, is, is not helping me.

This is because all you're saying is all the good things I've done, you know, can you, can you, at least, can you say some things that I need to improve on, or fine tune or whatever?

And that was a couple of organizations that was happening in, you know, the real performance conversation, you know, you're good, or you're great. Here's how you can be better, right, you know? Or here's some of the things that you do need to work on, Matt Egan

yeah, yeah, no, very interesting. And then I think part of that is, again, you You mean, you're very well educated, right? You've got your hands on experience as well. You've got a huge amount of knowledge.

But of course, in this industry, things change, and the practical applications of the technology means that things change anyway. So I don't know if there was a first time you realized something that you thought you knew might not actually be wholly Correct.

Has there ever been anything like that along the way? Any any kind of firm beliefs that you've had to one believe at certain points. Yeah, David Jones

I think there's, there's probably one example of that around when we, when we were bringing in kind of like a service oriented architecture and business process management ppm, at the time, we actually, actually, actually won an award by Oracle.

It's the Oracle Fusion Middleware architects of the Year Award, right? And we, myself and my team, I was leading the architecture team at the time on that as well. And we, you know, we, we delivered on a solar stack and a BPM stack.

And I remember the solar stack worked very well. I remember the and this wasn't to do with the product itself, but I remember on the BPM side is the business sponsor who was very much behind us in the early stages.

Says, I just, I'm not seeing the value of this. I, my, my, my operations teams are not being able to find the right use cases to apply the BPM.

The idea was that the business was supposed to get more ownership and develop the process models themselves and automate them, as opposed to them being an IT.

And that was back in 2007 2008 very silly early stages of automation that that the business themselves can, can empower themselves with.

And it was too early for BPM, and we end up, we end up having to back out that solution a number of years later, and simplified things for the business. And it was clear that, one, the technology wasn't there yet.

But secondly, the business weren't ready for that kind of automation that they could do themselves.

And I saw it generally as it kind of like we had, we had a BPM sledge hammer, and we were looking for all or not, you know, yeah, was that analogy Matt Egan interesting?

Yeah. But again, I think, like the that the successful thing here is that, you know, you were able to to recognize that and learn from it, right? Because it's not, it's not the worst failing to have. But.

It's but it's an important thing to learn, and it speaks to, kind of the theme of our conversation here, which is that actually the right solution isn't always the quote, unquote, best Gold Standard Solution. Right depends on what the David Jones

organization I think I have probably one other example, not necessarily a failure, but actually, you know, a a crossroads, where we're both the business stakeholders and the it style stakeholders realize we've now got to a stage in our journey in the organization that we now need to pivot right.

And I had prime example of that, where I'd architected the landscape, which was heavily bespoke application development focused from an IT perspective to one of we now need to buy off the shelf. We now need to move into the SaaS world, etc.

So moving from a lot of what we've developed into a, you know, packaged kind of, we don't want to, we don't want to be in a software product company where an end user company, let's, let's, we can't keep up with all the R D, let's now make a strategic change to say we're going to simplify our landscape and we're going to buy, you know, the industry leading packages, both for our front office and for our back office, and that, and that was a big decision for me as an architect that had brought the team, and We'd had, you know that seven to 10 years journey on that development path to now move to, we're actually going to be phasing this out because we're moving to packaged and integrations.

Matt Egan

Yeah, again, I think something that is a real sign of strong and successful people is, and it's something I have to learn regularly. A previous boss was very good at telling me this is kind of, is you have to, not to get sort of polemical about things right.

Like, like, even if you you do know that this is the right thing and it's the best thing, but, like, it's almost that thing of, again, as a as a leader, sometimes you have to sell to your team something that you don't think is necessarily the best thing, because it's been the thing that's decided.

And I think as an individual, sometimes you have to let go of things because, because that's the consensus and we're just going to go in that direction kind of thing. It can be a tricky thing to learn. Well, amazing like these.

These are very positive failings I think you've had there. David, so well done for navigating that section.

Let's take, let's take a short break from the business stuff, and maybe get to we're going to go to Quick Fire First, where we where we try to get be, get to know you a little bit beyond your professional veneer using our patented random question generators.

So could you please pick a question from number one to 35 number five is, oh, okay, well, and it's perfectly fine to not have an answer for this, but could you tell us something, maybe, about your first car? David Jones My first car?

Yeah, oh, that's a great question. Yeah, my first car was when I was in university. I used some of my grant at the time. David, Matt Egan but yes, yes.

I also got a grant. David Jones

I got a mark two Ford F Scott, I'm Matt Egan

celebrating because that was exactly the car I brought when I was at first. So there you go, Yeah, mine was white with a green stripe. I'm not sure if you can David Jones compete.

Mine was white. Was the red stripe. Matt Egan

Oh, there you go. Amazing. We could have bruised around together. We could have, I think mine did 140,000 miles, and I sold it to my dad for a couple of 100 quid, which is just him giving me some money to move to London. David Jones But yeah, what?

I wonder how much it'd be worth now, yeah, Matt Egan right.

Well, I mean, I think this particular one not that much, because in those 140,000 miles, I've really ridden the clutch quite hard, but funny, actually, I now drive, this is not a boast. I now drive a 19 year old Ford Focus.

And my brother in law collects classic cars, and I keep turning him in one year's time, my terrible Ford Focus is a 50 Year class, and it makes him cross, um, oh, go on. Then let's, let's go for, let's go for one more about our fun questions.

Again, a number between one and 13. That isn't five. David Jones I got for 13.

That's Matt Egan saying, why not?

I'm looking for some that is, can you tell us something about the first holiday? You remember David Jones first holiday?

Well, actually, first Well, certainly, you know a holiday for us, like when we were growing up, for example, we couldn't afford to go abroad, whatever abroad meant.

And planes were expensive, and all of that flying, going to Wales, from Liverpool, going, going to Wales, to with with my with my family. Yeah. That was a really, and that, you know, you know, that was very modest. But we had a, we had had a great time.

And I, typical Liverpool fashion, I saw a a a lamp post, a wooden lamp post, and I put carved my initials on the lamppost, leaving your master, yeah, I was, you know, DJ was here, whatever the year was.

And I remember going back there years later, seeing that it was still there. Now I left all that graffiti behind me. I think Matt Egan

the statute of limits is limitations as probably it's funny, I grew up in Leigh, West Yorkshire, and yeah, we used to, we used to go to the coast, to the east coast for our holidays when I was a kid.

And I definitely, I was away with my family recently, and sort of reminiscing my wife and I that I'd been on a plane until I was, like, in my late teens, kind of thing.

And that was a that was, like an organized church trip thing, whereas, like, my kids this sub blase about about all of these things. It's just, you know, progressing, and it's what we want for our families. But right? But David Jones

I think Matt, the thing that I really learned from that was, you know, one it gave me the passion for the outdoor life, you know, simple holidays, you know, spending time in a modest way with your family, enjoying enjoying The Beach, enjoying the hills, the mountains, etc.

And and kind of, you're kind of doing that with, with very little income, you know. And, and then when you know, when you do go away, you know, you kind of, you're going away for a different experience then, right?

And you're kind of, and, you know, you kind of, you can kind of value that for what for what that is. I spend a lot of my times in Ireland, you know, in the countryside, yeah, at the beaches and sea, swimming, hiking.

I'd love to travel, but I always go back to that, yeah, Matt Egan I sounds.

Sounds amazing, to be honest with you.

That's the other thing my kids are blase about, actually, like, growing up on a council estate, and, you know, we were fortunate enough to live in a semi rural place, and, you know, the occasional deer hops through the garden, or, you know, even just, you know, seeing a fox or a badger.

And my kids are kind of like, yeah, back to the screens kind of thing, whereas I'm like, for goodness sake, this is, this, is, this is, yeah, that's David Jones Matt.

I think, I think we could have lived in the same family. At some point. Matt Egan

It feels very similar, doesn't it? Okay, let's, let's, let's move on to our final section. You'll be very early to know David, which is we call first and final thoughts.

So, and I'm looking forward to this because, you know, you're a very successful person, but also, just from this conversation, it's clear you've got a lot to offer. So what would be the first piece of advice you would give to someone who was just starting out? David Jones

Um, well, very first, I wouldn't, I wouldn't sweat about, you know, getting into a career. Yeah, that's the very first thing. Even though I was driven, some people would mistaken that to be an ambitious and I wasn't ambitious.

I was driven to want to be able to get the experience of using the technology and and and collaborate and working with people.

That's I just love, you know, I'm, I'm very open and honest, as I said, but I just love working with people, solving problems, using technology, if you focus in on that, you know, the career, the compensation, the rewards, look after themselves, yeah, okay, that's the first thing I would say.

Secondly is I had the fortunate thing of of moving around companies, because I was, I was following where that experience was taking me, as opposed to the next career move. It was more of the experience move.

And actually, you know, not deliberately, but realizing hasn't gone from one industry to a different industry to a different company. I was also learning a lot about those industries and those those ways of doing things, the cultures, the company themselves, the countries that actually worked in as well.

So try to diversify as much as you can across companies, across industries and even countries you know as much as you can, as opposed to you know, you and I grown up, Matt is, get in the banks.

And, you know, if you own a bank for life, you know, Matt Egan yeah, very much.

So my parents were, you know, classic sort of working class boomers, like, you know, my mom was a teacher. My dad worked for the NHS for four years kind of thing. And it was, you got in and you stayed there.

And I completely agree, you know, in my world. In media and publishing, we've been in an industrial revolution for 25 years, right? And like the people who succeed, thrive, prosper, are open to the different experience, and so however you get it.

And actually, I've worked the same organization for a long time, but it's never been the same, right? It's been different roles, challenges, different skills.

I think that is, that's excellent advice to give people, and I and it's funny, you're not the first person to say your first piece, which is like, you know, don't think about the the staging post, the material gains, all of those things like, follow you follow the thing that you're passionate about, you're interested about.

For me, it's been always learned, right?

As long as you're kind of learning something, then it feels like you're kind of and it's fine to do a transactional job, and it's fine to do it, but like, I think if you've got that passion, then you know that that's the thing that's going to lead to content in this.

David Jones And you're 100% right.

Matt, the final thing I would say is, and it was something I I reflected on an interview.

I went for an interview for it was actually for the combined CIO chief architecture role, so a bit schizophrenic in one of the companies and the the global CIO and the global HR director was in there and says, What is the one thing that you would you would really, you'd remember leaving behind in this organization in a number of years time.

And I said, it's not the technology, I said, or the solutions or what we've achieved. It's the people. It's the people that I've led and developed and have been successful in their own right, and have gone on to do their thing, right?

Yeah, it's ultimately the people for me and and, you know, if you ever talk to people that I've led or been worked with, and the functions I've run is, is a it's about the people, and they don't understand that, you know, it is all about the people.

That's Matt Egan amazing.

Well, David, I just want to thank you, because this has been an excellent conversation, and we've covered so many topics, I feel like we could talk for several hours longer. Maybe we'll have to go on a walking holiday at some point to city of that, but David Jones

I'd love to see that. Matt Egan

But my thanks to you, David Jones, and thanks for watching and listening to first person the show where we meet the most interesting people in it and learn from them what makes them tick by focusing only on their first I think you'll agree that David has been extremely interesting.

Um, I've been your host, Matt Egan, asking you to enjoy, like and subscribe wherever you find us. And if you are an interesting person in it, let us know and you might be the next First Person. Thank you very much. And goodbye.